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#10361 - 01/21/13 06:46 PM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: Bowlingfan]
RMU Coach Offline
forum member


Registered: 09/28/09
Posts: 20
I appreciate the mostly productive conversation on this topic, it reminds me of past years topics and I for one welcome it. In my experience a pattern never plays the same, as there are too many variables involved, temperature, humidity, cleaner mixture are but a few. Also as we know a surface and a lane machine tends to need a few applications of a pattern to truly play the way pattern was meant to be played. In short, it is not an exact science.
Now on to the topic at hand. First off there is not a solution that will make everyone happy. I had a very productive conversation with Gary yesterday. There is no precedence for what happened last weekend at a Tier One. So whatever Gary and his advisory council and the rules department decide, they will be setting a precedence that will be there forever. That is a very serious subject as they will basically be changing the way this topic is viewed forever. My first vote would be to award power points based on the two squads being two separate tournaments. If that option is thrown out, what about this. Treat the two girls squad separately, do a team average differential for the two squads, and then do a strength of field calculation on the two squads, and then combine the data. I'm not sure where this would lead, but it certainly would be fairer than leaving the standings where they are. I'm sure Karl would be able to do this, and it would be interesting to see what the results would be. I look forward to your thoughts!

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#10362 - 01/21/13 08:07 PM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: RMU Coach]
Fostees Offline
forum member


Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 26
Yes Kyle I was there all weekend. I saw all of the first squad and game 3 of the second squad. I have to say that your coach explained the impossibility of having the same shot on multiple squads much better than I did. Also your suggestions to seperate squads for the men and the women is a great idea I would add this to that suggestion. No JV teams would have to be eliminated. The JV men could bowl in the same squad as the women. With this years entries that would be 52 women and 14 JV men. 66 teams. They could even have the buffer between the men and woman. The only draw back is the Individual awards. Again squads could determine who is all tournament and who is not. Looks like this forum thread could help in solving some serious problems for next years Blue and Gold tournament.

Any other ideas out there?

I would say this to the Blue and Gold tournament director. Do not take any of this personal take it as constructive critisism.
Other than the womans problem your tournament was ran very professionally. Your staff was friendly and to have the scores out as quickly as you did after each game was greatly appreciated by all. Thanks for having such a great tournament.

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#10363 - 01/22/13 08:08 AM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: Fostees]
duano5 Offline
forum member


Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 9
For the guys'.... My main thought is that anybody that bowled the 2nd squad on Saturday didn't have a chance to win the tournament, and that should never happen. Squad equity has been an issue for years in our sport unfortunately from local scratch tournaments to PBA regionals, it happens. Frustrating and unfortunate of course but the question is how do we have some standardization across Tier 1 tournaments? A dedicated tournament director or lane maintenance standard that is followed by our most importantant tournaments of every season? I'm sure there's a current process but that process seems to be in need of a review.

For the girls.... 2 separate tournaments for power points is the obvious answer in my opinion, if that's a possibility. And unfortunately I don't think the individual scores should count.
_________________________
Duane Fleming
Assistant Coach
St. Ambrose Bowling

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#10364 - 01/22/13 08:11 AM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: duano5]
duano5 Offline
forum member


Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 9
In the future to avoid possible squad equity issues I would suggest a men's squad and a women's squad similar to the Hoosier. It's a long day for some coaches but the fairest way to do things.
_________________________
Duane Fleming
Assistant Coach
St. Ambrose Bowling

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#10365 - 01/22/13 08:35 AM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: duano5]
Nick Hoagland Offline
forum member


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 91
Excellent points by everyone!

At the Hoosier, our schedule does make for a long day but it also minimizes the chances of this happening although we go to great strides to be sure that both of the lane machines are "taping" out the same way. (In fact, the house lane machine is our back-up and is ready to go in case an emergency happens).

As far as squad equity goes, etc...it is tough.

One thing that must occur when going from a house shot to a sport condition, is to double strip the lanes each night.

Ideally, the bowling center would clean the lanes before they close for the night and then they would clean/oil the lanes immediately before the first squad (not at 2 AM). This way, there is no house shot "base" for the first squad. Also, the lanes are "fresh" for the first squad just like they are for the 2nd squad. With the amount of money a large tournament pays to the center, they should be able to service that request without a problem.

USBC Open Championship staff has done this in the past. They will strip the oil off of the lanes at night to get to a zero base and then start fresh in the morning for the 7:00 AM squad.

If we keep having these positive conversations about making the maintenance a priority, then we will be accomplishing our goal.

I spoke to Drew Crail @ Notre Dame over email and he obviously is not pleased with what happened. I offered my help to him (or any other tournament director) who wants to know more and how to look for the warning signs / verify a tournament condition.

Education is the key!

Nick

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#10368 - 01/22/13 02:44 PM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: Nick Hoagland]
Michael Fine Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Florida State University
I have always been in favor of providing information about the lane surface and the pattern in advance of the event. Had we been provided this information for this event it would have been apparent that tape had been pulled on the wrong pattern. The center could have redressed the lanes with a minimum delay and we would not be having this discussion.
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#10369 - 01/22/13 05:05 PM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: Michael Fine]
Zach Hunter Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 37
Loc: Rockford, IL
What happened with the girls side is a mess that leaves no solution to make both sides happy, but the guys side seemed fine to me. Yes, the shot may have played somewhat different from squad to squad, but the same teams end up at the top of the list anyways. The 1st squad was stacked with more of the upper-echelon teams than the 2nd squad and that's why you get the lower scores on the 2nd squad. The fact that they messed up the girls side doesn't necessarily mean the guys side got screwed up because of different scores.
_________________________
Zach Hunter
RVC Coach (2011-Present)
Lindenwood Bowling (2008-2010)
RVC Bowling (2005-2007)

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#10370 - 01/23/13 09:07 AM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: Zach Hunter]
footpba Offline
forum member


Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 94
Loc: missouri
I agree with Duane about making the two squads each it's own tournament, except I would count the individual scores.
Each would have their own event average, their own differential, and their own All-tourney team. It would in effect become the 11th tier 1, with only 25+ teams each instead of 52.

On the Men's side, there has always been an unfair squad equity to the A squad. To add to what Nick and RMU Coach said, lane machines just don't do as good a job stripping more than once a day, especially on wood. Plus, most of the top teams bowl on A; after RobMo, the next 7 ranked teams were on A. The lanes open up faster and score higher because of it.
We bowled on B for years. In 2009, we lead the B squad and finished 7th. That was enough for me. We've bowl A ever since.

We would be 100% in favor of separate Men's/Women's squads. Let all the teams bowl at the same time. It's the fairest way.
_________________________
Coach Lightfoot
LU Bowling

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#10372 - 01/23/13 11:17 AM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: footpba]
duano5 Offline
forum member


Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 9
And I would agree that if it was separate events then individual scores could count with their own event average, etc. for the girls. Does anyone know why this couldn't be the solution? I thought I heard this past weekend that it was brought up but not possible?
_________________________
Duane Fleming
Assistant Coach
St. Ambrose Bowling

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#10373 - 01/23/13 12:10 PM Re: USBC certified college tourny w/houseshot 4 some [Re: duano5]
uffleshuffle Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 326
Loc: Iowa
I agree that splitting the events (at least for the sake of Power Points, if nothing else) would be a fair solution, however, they would need to essentially be counted as a 23 team Tier II (shift 1) and a 24 team Tier I (shift 2). Since it does say in the rulebook that Tier I's will only maintain their status if they are sport compliant, I don't think we can split the women's group into two Tier I's, as only one was compliant.
_________________________
Christopher P. Uffman
Assistant Coach
Midland University
Fremont, NE

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